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Thoughts on 10-11pm:
1.Okay, let's get this out of the way: SHIRTLESS JACK NEXT WEEK! (Laura, do you forgive the suits instead of kevlar if it means we also get shirtless Jack? Hmm....)
I really hope they aren't setting the stage to slowly kill him over the course of S8, but it definitely will be interesting if they force him to face his own mortality and make him realize that he still has things to live for/make peace with all his regrets. While I don't think they'll kill him off now, they may make Jack go through Mason's arc from S2, only stretch it over now and S8.
Selfishly, I hope they don't take that route though. I'm debating how much I'd like a "search for the cure/anitdote" arc for the rest of the season, because I'm weighing how much I'd like to see Jack kicking ass and taking names vs the emotional development he'd go through as he slowly deteriorates and is FORCED to trust and rely on everyone (in order to be saved in the end of the day of course). It's a hard choice, but either way, DAMN I cannot wait to see Chloe and Renee's reactions.
2. Olivia. Oh Livvie. I'm so disappointed in you. And yet totally not the least bit surprised because it's still pretty consistent. I think that after everything she has lost and almost lost today, Olivia can't bring herself to be angry with her mom anymore, but she still needs someone to blame for being on the outs because she's refuses to see what she did was wrong. So she has convinced herself that Ethan, and Ethan alone, is responsible for poisoning Allison's thoughts against her, even though, in all likelihood, her mother was the one who made the decision. Given the little backstory we just got, I think Olivia sees Ethan as the parent she never wanted and that makes him the perfect target for her anger. He can see right through her, but his approval and love isn't guarranteed the way her mother and her father's are, so when her parents disapprove of her, she can cut Ethan out because he's not family.
Despite all that, though, I still think that Olivia will be instrumental in getting the only hard evidence they have tying Hodges to the terrorist attacks. It's just that now that we've seen her morally grey sides, it's going to be bittersweet because Allison *will* find out about what she did and be very disapointed. Eventually we all pay the consequences of our actions, and this is totally going to bite Olivia in the butt.
3. Ethan and Allison. My love of their friendship knows no bounds. Maybe it's because I remember the words of Jed Barlett from West Wing: "Do you have a best friend? Is he smarter than you? That's your chief of staff." That scene pretty much broke me a little because you know that they've been through a lot, and that Allison is where she is today because of the support she got from both Henry and Ethan. Despite their differences, you know they were their own OT3. The things this show does to me when it comes to friendship and loyalty hurt so good.
4. On a similar note, I've never been happier to be wrong when it comes to Larry and Renee's friendship. It's taken a lot of hits and has been razed close to the ground, but damnit Larry's optimism/inability to stop believing in the best of people goes deeper than I thought. He's either a masochist or he really believes in Renee's goodness, because he keeps on reaching out to her and trying to give her the opportunity to get back on the straight and narrow. Whatever their history was and whatever their future may be, I still think that Renee needs Larry in her life because he is the type of friend you don't leave if you can help it, because his faith is so strong. For all intensive purposes, he should have written her off, but he hasn't yet, even to the point that he's extended that to Jack. He's very careful with his words- the evidence overwhelmingly points in this direction so that is the assumption we are working on until proven otherwise. This episode really cemented my love for this character because he was humble enough to realize he handled things badly, even though for the most part he's done all the right things conventional wisdom would dictate. He just had no way of knowing that today would be so fucked up. And his *face* when Jack says to send the CDC to him. Jeffry Nordling, you and your faces have made this season oh so enjoyable for me. Whether it was soft frowny face or when he finally snapped and yelled at Kanin then quizzically looked at his phone, thinking, "oh crap did Kanin just hang up on me?"- his faces alone make episodes worth watching. I don't know why I find him adorable but I do.
5. And finally we have Jack and Tony. Tony's survival instincts are now well honed, but I find it interesting that he refers to them as Jack's rules, not his own. Obi-wan has taught you well, but beware of the dark side. It's pretty clear to me that everything that Tony's become has been influenced by how he's seen Jack survive. Still, I love that despite the fact that he disagreed with Jack's decision, the fight or flight scenario still had him staying by Jack's side. Jack's all he has left in the world, the one person left who still believes in the good in him, still asking him, inviting him to fight by his side, so it makes sense.
Thoughts on rules, boundaries and the "Whatever it takes" debate.
Okay so basically Hodges' plan this season is Logan's plan from S5, right? Introduce a crisis that only you can fix so you wind up looking like the hero. Except for Hodges and Burnett, it's not for selfish glory but to "keep the US safe" by poking holes and exposing its weaknesses.
I suppose I can live with that, even though it's not terribly original. The main reason is because it serves as another reference point in the debate over when we can bend the rules and what rules we can't break. Everyone has their line. Larry's and Mayer's is endangerment of any kind, Renee's is physical endangerment of one innocent, Tony's line is endangering many innocents, and now we have Hodges who has no line. Thus our spectrum is complete. Just as Jack shows Larry that it's sometimes necessary to bend the rules, Hodges shows us that the validity of Larry and Mayer's argument that the rules still need to exist. No matter how much Hodges wants to rationalize it, the fact that he's using people who are disillusioned and resent the government to "protect" it should tell him how fucked up his logic is. It's so inherently wrong, but he refuses to see it because he no longer has perspective, no lines or boundaries, no rules to ground him. The "rules make us better" because they prevent us from becoming the monsters we seek to protect others from, which is exactly what has happened to Hodges.
And speaking of rules, how about Jack breaking his own rules to save Security Guard Carl's life? In many ways, S7 is a reversal of S1, because if S1 was all about how Jack became the man he is, with little left to lose and willing to do what it takes, S7 is quickly becoming how Jack is taking those pieces back and putting himself back together again. In S1 we see his walls crumbling down in the hospital, building to that point where he makes the decision to say goodbye to Teri to go on a suicide mission to save their daughter. In that moment, Jack became a man who had nothing to left to lose, and while losing Teri cemented that, even before she died, he had already committed to the "whatever it takes" mentality.
Now, 14 years later in S7, he's still standing, but he's moved so far to the extreme that there's no where else for him to go but back to the person he used to be, just ever so slightly. If he doesn't, he will wind up like Tony, or worse, Hodges, and the important thing to note is that Jack isn't there there- YET. He can still be saved, and it's at this moment that we begin to see the turn.
He may not have Teri or Audrey or Kim anymore, but the memory of them is still enough to keep him from becoming like Hodges. Just as Allison was able to get through to him by drawing parallels between Olivia and Kim, the memory of Teri and her pregnancy and their family that almost was is what saved Security Guard Carl's life. Is it just a coincidence that Carl talks about his pregnant wife and the trials they had to put a family together, when S1!Jack was in the process of putting his family back together with his own pregnant wife? I don't think so.
That, compounded with Marika's death and Carl using Renee's very words from 7x05, is enough that it makes him think twice about making Carl collateral damange. I'm sure that in his head, he sees Mayer telling him to trust the system, hears Renee's voice in his head telling him that maybe she doesn't want to learn how to live with it. Choosing to save Carl's life may not have been the smartest choice, but it's not necessarily the wrong choice either, at least not for Jack's soul. Tony pretty much called it out in his question about who he was saving Carl for, because at the end of the day, both Renee and Tony are really asking the same question: what is Jack willing to live with?
And S7, tinged with regrets and questions of the path not taken, offers Jack the opportunity to explore both avenues without offering solid answers. By showing us the costs of both ways, all that is clear that there is no clear-cut right or wrong way. If we go with the ruthless way, Marika dies; if we go on the side of compassion, Tony gets kidnapped and Jack might die. Either way you go, you still lose because someone has to pay the cost. Larry's rules make us better; Jack's rules keep us alive. They're both right, and they're both wrong. The only constant is that there is cost that someone (anyone) will have to pay. The rules you choose to follow simply determine what kind of life you decide to lead. Quality over quantity.
All in all, I have to once again give the writers snaps for actually scripting in these themes into the season. Normally we are happy to get some semblence of a coherent villain motivation. This year though, we get the "whatever it takes" debate on multiple levels (Olivia vs Ethan, Larry vs Jack, Jack vs Tony vs Hodges), the trust issues for old relationships (Jack/Tony, Renee/Larry, Ethan/Allison, Jack/Chloe, Jack/Bill) and new (Allison/Jack, Jack/Renee), and we get callbacks to past seasons. If they can remember to give Jack at least scabbed over scars from S6, this may surpass S2 and tie with S1 as my favorite season yet.
1.Okay, let's get this out of the way: SHIRTLESS JACK NEXT WEEK! (Laura, do you forgive the suits instead of kevlar if it means we also get shirtless Jack? Hmm....)
I really hope they aren't setting the stage to slowly kill him over the course of S8, but it definitely will be interesting if they force him to face his own mortality and make him realize that he still has things to live for/make peace with all his regrets. While I don't think they'll kill him off now, they may make Jack go through Mason's arc from S2, only stretch it over now and S8.
Selfishly, I hope they don't take that route though. I'm debating how much I'd like a "search for the cure/anitdote" arc for the rest of the season, because I'm weighing how much I'd like to see Jack kicking ass and taking names vs the emotional development he'd go through as he slowly deteriorates and is FORCED to trust and rely on everyone (in order to be saved in the end of the day of course). It's a hard choice, but either way, DAMN I cannot wait to see Chloe and Renee's reactions.
2. Olivia. Oh Livvie. I'm so disappointed in you. And yet totally not the least bit surprised because it's still pretty consistent. I think that after everything she has lost and almost lost today, Olivia can't bring herself to be angry with her mom anymore, but she still needs someone to blame for being on the outs because she's refuses to see what she did was wrong. So she has convinced herself that Ethan, and Ethan alone, is responsible for poisoning Allison's thoughts against her, even though, in all likelihood, her mother was the one who made the decision. Given the little backstory we just got, I think Olivia sees Ethan as the parent she never wanted and that makes him the perfect target for her anger. He can see right through her, but his approval and love isn't guarranteed the way her mother and her father's are, so when her parents disapprove of her, she can cut Ethan out because he's not family.
Despite all that, though, I still think that Olivia will be instrumental in getting the only hard evidence they have tying Hodges to the terrorist attacks. It's just that now that we've seen her morally grey sides, it's going to be bittersweet because Allison *will* find out about what she did and be very disapointed. Eventually we all pay the consequences of our actions, and this is totally going to bite Olivia in the butt.
3. Ethan and Allison. My love of their friendship knows no bounds. Maybe it's because I remember the words of Jed Barlett from West Wing: "Do you have a best friend? Is he smarter than you? That's your chief of staff." That scene pretty much broke me a little because you know that they've been through a lot, and that Allison is where she is today because of the support she got from both Henry and Ethan. Despite their differences, you know they were their own OT3. The things this show does to me when it comes to friendship and loyalty hurt so good.
4. On a similar note, I've never been happier to be wrong when it comes to Larry and Renee's friendship. It's taken a lot of hits and has been razed close to the ground, but damnit Larry's optimism/inability to stop believing in the best of people goes deeper than I thought. He's either a masochist or he really believes in Renee's goodness, because he keeps on reaching out to her and trying to give her the opportunity to get back on the straight and narrow. Whatever their history was and whatever their future may be, I still think that Renee needs Larry in her life because he is the type of friend you don't leave if you can help it, because his faith is so strong. For all intensive purposes, he should have written her off, but he hasn't yet, even to the point that he's extended that to Jack. He's very careful with his words- the evidence overwhelmingly points in this direction so that is the assumption we are working on until proven otherwise. This episode really cemented my love for this character because he was humble enough to realize he handled things badly, even though for the most part he's done all the right things conventional wisdom would dictate. He just had no way of knowing that today would be so fucked up. And his *face* when Jack says to send the CDC to him. Jeffry Nordling, you and your faces have made this season oh so enjoyable for me. Whether it was soft frowny face or when he finally snapped and yelled at Kanin then quizzically looked at his phone, thinking, "oh crap did Kanin just hang up on me?"- his faces alone make episodes worth watching. I don't know why I find him adorable but I do.
5. And finally we have Jack and Tony. Tony's survival instincts are now well honed, but I find it interesting that he refers to them as Jack's rules, not his own. Obi-wan has taught you well, but beware of the dark side. It's pretty clear to me that everything that Tony's become has been influenced by how he's seen Jack survive. Still, I love that despite the fact that he disagreed with Jack's decision, the fight or flight scenario still had him staying by Jack's side. Jack's all he has left in the world, the one person left who still believes in the good in him, still asking him, inviting him to fight by his side, so it makes sense.
Thoughts on rules, boundaries and the "Whatever it takes" debate.
Okay so basically Hodges' plan this season is Logan's plan from S5, right? Introduce a crisis that only you can fix so you wind up looking like the hero. Except for Hodges and Burnett, it's not for selfish glory but to "keep the US safe" by poking holes and exposing its weaknesses.
I suppose I can live with that, even though it's not terribly original. The main reason is because it serves as another reference point in the debate over when we can bend the rules and what rules we can't break. Everyone has their line. Larry's and Mayer's is endangerment of any kind, Renee's is physical endangerment of one innocent, Tony's line is endangering many innocents, and now we have Hodges who has no line. Thus our spectrum is complete. Just as Jack shows Larry that it's sometimes necessary to bend the rules, Hodges shows us that the validity of Larry and Mayer's argument that the rules still need to exist. No matter how much Hodges wants to rationalize it, the fact that he's using people who are disillusioned and resent the government to "protect" it should tell him how fucked up his logic is. It's so inherently wrong, but he refuses to see it because he no longer has perspective, no lines or boundaries, no rules to ground him. The "rules make us better" because they prevent us from becoming the monsters we seek to protect others from, which is exactly what has happened to Hodges.
And speaking of rules, how about Jack breaking his own rules to save Security Guard Carl's life? In many ways, S7 is a reversal of S1, because if S1 was all about how Jack became the man he is, with little left to lose and willing to do what it takes, S7 is quickly becoming how Jack is taking those pieces back and putting himself back together again. In S1 we see his walls crumbling down in the hospital, building to that point where he makes the decision to say goodbye to Teri to go on a suicide mission to save their daughter. In that moment, Jack became a man who had nothing to left to lose, and while losing Teri cemented that, even before she died, he had already committed to the "whatever it takes" mentality.
Now, 14 years later in S7, he's still standing, but he's moved so far to the extreme that there's no where else for him to go but back to the person he used to be, just ever so slightly. If he doesn't, he will wind up like Tony, or worse, Hodges, and the important thing to note is that Jack isn't there there- YET. He can still be saved, and it's at this moment that we begin to see the turn.
He may not have Teri or Audrey or Kim anymore, but the memory of them is still enough to keep him from becoming like Hodges. Just as Allison was able to get through to him by drawing parallels between Olivia and Kim, the memory of Teri and her pregnancy and their family that almost was is what saved Security Guard Carl's life. Is it just a coincidence that Carl talks about his pregnant wife and the trials they had to put a family together, when S1!Jack was in the process of putting his family back together with his own pregnant wife? I don't think so.
That, compounded with Marika's death and Carl using Renee's very words from 7x05, is enough that it makes him think twice about making Carl collateral damange. I'm sure that in his head, he sees Mayer telling him to trust the system, hears Renee's voice in his head telling him that maybe she doesn't want to learn how to live with it. Choosing to save Carl's life may not have been the smartest choice, but it's not necessarily the wrong choice either, at least not for Jack's soul. Tony pretty much called it out in his question about who he was saving Carl for, because at the end of the day, both Renee and Tony are really asking the same question: what is Jack willing to live with?
And S7, tinged with regrets and questions of the path not taken, offers Jack the opportunity to explore both avenues without offering solid answers. By showing us the costs of both ways, all that is clear that there is no clear-cut right or wrong way. If we go with the ruthless way, Marika dies; if we go on the side of compassion, Tony gets kidnapped and Jack might die. Either way you go, you still lose because someone has to pay the cost. Larry's rules make us better; Jack's rules keep us alive. They're both right, and they're both wrong. The only constant is that there is cost that someone (anyone) will have to pay. The rules you choose to follow simply determine what kind of life you decide to lead. Quality over quantity.
All in all, I have to once again give the writers snaps for actually scripting in these themes into the season. Normally we are happy to get some semblence of a coherent villain motivation. This year though, we get the "whatever it takes" debate on multiple levels (Olivia vs Ethan, Larry vs Jack, Jack vs Tony vs Hodges), the trust issues for old relationships (Jack/Tony, Renee/Larry, Ethan/Allison, Jack/Chloe, Jack/Bill) and new (Allison/Jack, Jack/Renee), and we get callbacks to past seasons. If they can remember to give Jack at least scabbed over scars from S6, this may surpass S2 and tie with S1 as my favorite season yet.
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I love love love your analysis of the Larry/Renee relationship here, and am now officially sold. I'm such a hopeless romantic that I'm always there for the ship, but I have to hand it to 24 that even in what I've seen of this show, they have such nuanced and complex personal relationships between the characters. Combine that with what's at stake and it's insane to try to follow the subtle changes and shifts in motivation that seem to take place every ten seconds.
Last night, when Renee was on the phone with Larry, part of me wanted her NOT to give in and trust him, but now I know that I was beyond wrong there (I mean at least barring further information, which can always happen on 24). I loved her waffling, standing there trying to decide, and then finally giving it up, and he BELIEVED her. So I'm with you 100% now on the idea that while (of course) I don't want them together romantically anymore, I hope they can manage to pull off staying friends.
Woah that was rambly and long. I swear that the day after 24 my brain can't go anyplace else. Total sickness.
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If they slowly kill him over a season - Kay I just don't know if I can handle that. My natural state's depressed enough as it is, I NEED hope. So need hope. I'm clinging to Hodges having antidote. (And it's probably not a chip...) I think it's interesting in that he has had those "making amends" moments but they never lasted longer than half an episode. Next week is going to hurt. Oh, god, Renee's reaction and then even worse, Chloe's and I'm hoping Larry has to tell Renee because I think he'd be comforting unlike say...Janis.
2. I find myself disappointed in Livvie too. I believed her -- and distrusted Ethan -- but she's going with the story. That means in...a few seconds in 24time, we're gonna have nationwide coverage of Ethan resigning *and* Jack as a federal fugitive. While he's probably dying of a virus he caught trying to protect America. So not fair. And so twisted. Because Livvie's info was wrong.
I don't think she's entirely wrong about Ethan giving her mom advice against her, though. Need to minimize damage, etc. I also think Ethan is an awful advisor. He's given terrible advice all day. Allison, you might like him but you do need someone who would have seen there were 100+ moles in all levels of government. Again, could you see them gettin' away with that on Rahm's watch? Not likely. I know someone who used to be kind of good at dealing with corrupt administrations, you may want to ask his advice. Oh Miiiike.
4. I was so thrilled about this as well. Although I don't think it was trying to put her on the straight and narrow as much as desperately trying to understand what he'd gotten involved in. I think realizing why she kept things from him -- she's right, finding out what Jack was doing DID cause Meyer's death -- and all the times they've talked before and their history and dammit *Renee*. I loved that. Conventional wisdom fails in the 24verse. Sorry Larry. But, he was upset to hear about Jack and the CDC and I still kinda wonder if he has a backstory with Tony.
5. Yes, Tony took his cues from Jack who gets to see two mirrors this season. I think Jack won't turn into Tony, but mostly because he hasn't been brainwashed by a charismatic figure like Emerson. I think at one time he *could* gone down Tony's road. Tony cares about him, he wouldn't abandon him, and I got a feeling that coming up that relationship is gonna take on new weight. I could be wrong. Also, you know, it's totally saving Michelle vs. containing the virus. So many parallels. It's almost like the writers spent break time rewatching old seasons.
I think you're so right about Carl and Jack and his soul. It's the same question in season six done terribly - the what are you willing to live with on your conscience. And how much will you sacrifice of what you can live with to save someone else?
There are no easy answers and every choice leads to disaster.
I do think you're wrong about Hodges. He may say he's a patriot, but this is a power grab. He's not doing this for any greater good. He may say he is -- but that makes him closer to Bluetooth mafia s5 than Logan. If he says people have to die for things to change then we'll know where he falls.
So many relationships this season *bounces* and after last season of non relationships it's wonderful. I hope they remember the scars. I wish that my worst days at work weren't Mondays and Tuesdays.
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Oh and there's an antidote for sure. If Hodges is going to release it on people for the purpose of showing the world that it needs Starkwood, they'd have to have the cure so that they could be the hero. Even if, as you posit, Hodges is more of the Bluetooth mafia than Logan, either way, he will have an antidote.
And oh man. Larry will tell Renee, and it is just going to hurt, I just know it. Does he know that Quinn found Jack because they broadcasted it to Metro police? Either way, he knows that Jack means something special to Renee, so I definitely see him wanting to give her the news himself. Larry's like that, always treating Renee with kid gloves.
2. Man, I was so disappointed in Olivia that she decided to run the story anyway. I might have, MAYBE, have forgiven her because she ended up killing the story, but now that it's affecting Jack, that's just not fair. And I can't imagine what Kim will say when she sees that on the news. I just...GAH.
Fair point about Ethan. Oh and HAH. If Mike came back I would just crack up. I don't see him coming in, but can you imagine what he would say to Allison? "Okay, Madame President, here are the rules of the game. There's only one rule: always listen to Jack. When we try to interfere, he winds up in China." Heehee.
4. The straight and narrow thing was just an overall statement of his attitude all day. In this instance, you're right that he was just trying to understand what is going on. It's frustrating because Larry, if you give him just anything, he'll run with it if he trusts you. But that's the key. He doesn't (or didn't until now) trust Jack fully, and Renee has been holding pieces back from him all day. So I can't necessarily blame him for doing the best he can in the only way he knows how. If someone would just tell him to keep things on the DL so Jack can stay undercover, he would, because he has as seen in 7x08.
And yeah, I do wonder about him and Tony. He seemed kind of familiar with him in the interrogation room, or was that just an interrogation tactic?
5. Tony and Jack's relationship is one of the best things, if not the best thing, about this show that keeps it going. Because it's always been prickly and uncomfortable while at the same time reassuringly constant and full of trust. They really are brothers, fighting and arguing but ultimately always there for each other.
Yet the thing about created family like that is that every so often, when things get really bad, the question of how much someone who is not family or with whom you are romantically involved will trust you. Without that physical bond of blood or sex, it's always a question lurking in the back of your mind, and I wonder if the writers are going to take this opportunity to put Jack and Tony's relationship under the microscope in the next few eps. If maybe Stokes might try to pick apart the cracks in their relationship and poke at the history, maybe even try to turn Tony against Jack and introduce doubt.
Could be interesting. Also, total word to this: it's almost like the writers spent break time rewatching old seasons. Honestly, the extra time they had to write the season is great and I wonder if that is why they've altered their filming schedule from August to May.
I can't decide if Hodges really believes what he is spinning and is just that crazy, or if he is just using that so that his people will follow him. Maybe he's so far in denial, that's how he justifies it to himself- even though he knows deep down that it's not true? I have no idea. Hopefully we'll find more in later episodes.
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2. GAH! I know. I'm hoping she doesn't see it. Because OMG. I can imagine Chloe's reaction too :( *giggles* Yes, someone has to just lay it out there rule #1 Jack is always right, if Jack is ever wrong... I hope someone has a chance to look at Livvie and go OMG what have you done?
4. My friend and I were talking about how *weird* it was that while Larry is all distrustful of Jack he seems to have no problem with Tony. In fact, although he's a federal fugitive they're not even looking for him. Larry will bend over backwards if he trusts you and you are honest with him - I have so much love and respect for him being able to figure out the Starkwood thing.
5. Although in the 24verse, you can't even trust your own family. The question is in any relationship is how much will the other person trust you or how much can you trust in them? In fact I'd argue familial betrayal is more common than created family betrayal in the 24verse. For evidence of this you don't have to look much further than Graem.
Ooooo. I hope. I wanna see that so bad, Kay. You have no idea.
Maybe. Time = good.
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2. I imagine that once the news breaks, Allison's gonna lay into her so much, cuz we do see her make the order to move against Starkwood. Momma's gonna be pissed, and I can't wait to see what Cherry Jones and Sprague Grayden do with it. I love these actors like whoa.
4. I always figured that Larry knows, or think he knows, how to operate around Tony. He thinks he's got Tony's number- a guy who's pissed off at the world and lashing out and wants to be saved. Because of that, he can move confidently around Tony in the interrogation room, because he thinks he knows how to push Tony's buttons. Look at how he appealed to Tony's better nature by showing him those awful pictures.
It's Jack that he can't figure out, can't read, and therefore he remains distrustful. He's a wild card, who helps them, but doesn't; who seems to be good but does questionable things. Jack is equal parts likely to endanger his own life to save a civilian as he is to taser his boss. So yeah, major tension there.
As for not hunting Tony...well, he does have a lot on his plate right now. The manhunt for Tony will start AFTER they stop Dubaku, after they catch all the moles, after the siege on the White House, after they stop Starkwood. Jack's tied to that, so he's chasing him, but as far as he knows, this is the first he's heard of Tony being back in the mix. Plus, for all he knows, Tony has been undercover all 3 years. In any case, he's just not a priority the way Jack is.
5. Mmm, I would say that you can't trust your family if your last name is Bauer. But for everyone else, family still runs deep. Look at Dinah and Behrooz. Michelle and Danny. Jane and Stephen Saunders. Olivia and Allison. Even to a certain degree Kate and Marie Warner. There's something about blood relations that makes it much harder to abandon them when they do stupid or horrible things, something that makes one more willing to forgive and accept them if they show any semblence of remorse. It's harder to walk away and believe there's no good left in them, and I think we'll even see that this season with Jack and Kim.
In created family, those bonds are still there but doubts still linger because society places such a high premium on blood relations. We are more willing to believe that friends are more likely to drift than lovers, that lovers and spouses are more likely to betray each other than a parent would his or her own child. Even though in Jack's case, those rules don't apply.
That's what makes Jack unique. His family bonds are so fucked up, but his created family bonds with his inner circle (with Chloe, Tony, Bill, and from the looks of it now, Renee) are just as strong, if not stronger than some of their bonds with their own families (see: Tony and Jack keeping Michelle out of the loop in S3). Still that doesn't stop one from wondering from time to time, so I would be interested to see if Stokes picks up on that and starts to push Tony's buttons.
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2. Oh I hope so. I hope there's quiet fury. I also want to see this news story. C'mon 24, show us!
4. Hmmmm. I still don't know. I got my feelings. They're totally unfounded and probably completely wrong, but...Larry seemed not happy to hear about Tony being taken hostage. Jack's impossible to read. He almost has multiple personalities. Larry handled Tony so badly like "c'mon this isn't you" which again, WEIRD.
5. Yes Bauer = evil family. But you also had Behrooz and Navi. I mean, to take it to an extreme. I think that it's important that you have to make sure that other family member isn't some kind of sociopath who doesn't care about you at all and is only pretending. Or cares but way far down from how they feel about their own safety/happiness/plans. Yes, exactly. I think in a way it also makes it harder to forgive. Friends you can walk away from, or just decide to forgive. Family's harder, because you instinctively trust them more so their betrayal is at a deeper level. I think.
I'm...not sure I'd include Bill. I know everyone does, but I never really...got that deep connection the writers kept trying to show. I know there's unspoken backstory and that might have helped. Also, created family bonds are something like brothers in arms as they're in a "war". Oooo yes we see that also with Morris and Chloe and Chloe's loyalty to Jack and how she wants Morris to put that above their family.
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4. If Larry and Tony did have a personal/professional connection before all this, that would just...I wonder if Larry knows Tony's history in general from the Palmer pardon and stuff. If he even sympathized with him. Damnit, Rachel, stop introducing awesome ideas into my head.
5. Oh hell yeah, it hurts more. Ain't that the truth. It's definitely much harder to forgive, but my point is, you can always rely on that bond being there, even if you don't want it. Because even if you don't forgive them and you fight it, they are still tied to you and they are still a part of your life. Even when you try to cut the ties, they never fully cut. It's easier to pick apart non-blood relations.
Good point about Bill. Maybe at one point he almost could have been, but I think you're right that he never fully entered Jack's inner circle. Even though Jack wanted him to, Bill's principles and what he could live with were just too diametrically opposed to Jack's flexibility. Unlike, as you point out, Chloe who has to be told by her husband to please, you have a kid and a family, can you please put them first for once? LOL. Oh Chloe.
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4. Dude. Yes. I so wonder. I mean, it seems like Larry's been 'round a while, may have been reading papers or something. Had to have seen news or maybe just this was when the pardon happened or maybe he knows him the way high level manager agents know each other. Then again, he doesn't have a history with Jack. Hmmm.
5. I think it also depends on the person/family. As there are people who could cut all ties and walk away and those that can't. But you can be pulled back. I mean, look at Jack and his family. He cut ties with them years earlier (hi writers remember you never gave a reason that was awesome no love me) and yet he gets sucked back in.
Well the other thing about bill is that he and Jack never really knew each other. They worked together for a grand total of about two and a half days. Maybe. As Bill joined after Jack was fired, became and then was head of CTU while Jack was incapacitated through either China or faking own death.
Chloe! Oh Chloe. Well, I think it's more she can't sacrifice *herself* - have to think of other people, etc.
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That's what the Internet is for.
And lalalalalalalalala. See, now why'd you have to go and say there were clips? They're of Renee, aren't they? That's why
4. See, this is where having profiles on the CHARACTERS, STUPID FOX SITE, would be helpful. I demand backstory, damnit! Maybe he knew Tony and Michelle from when they were working as a security firm and they did some contracting for the government btw S4 and S5? Maybe he heard the news when Logan was arrested, since Michelle and Tony's bombing would have been added to that, right? Ugh, why are you feeding this theory. Now it's going to get stuck in my brain.
5. Hmm, true. I think it's pretty telling that Jack's trust lies in people who have known him before S4. Although, for some reason I feel like Jack knew at least of Bill because he was friends with Michelle when she went up to Seattle btw S3 and S4. Maybe that's where the wariness came. I guess Bill falls somewhere between Chloe and Chase. Jack still trusts him, but not completely the way he trusts Tony and Chloe.
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YES WTF NO PROFILES = SUCK. Sorry, but uh, were profiles too much to ask for? Did they not want to spoil things? *sighs*. It's ep 16!!! What the hell FOX. Meanwhile they have the awesome "instinct" game where you line up pictures or something and get random clues. But no profiles! Hmmmm. I think that's possible. Unless that was kept on the DL. Government contracting. Could be possible too. I have secret totally unproven totally insane theory that is too insane almost to share which pivots on the idea of Larry and Tony having their own secret operation.
I think, yeah, most of the people he trusts he has known pre-s4 (a lot of others are dead...) Obviously he trusted Audrey, but that doesn't matter now. And Heller but uh, yeah, not so great person to put trust in.
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Yo, even if it's crazy, I wanna hear it. Tell me tell me tell me. If I can't talk about spoiler, I can definitely play the speculation game.
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So. I was thinking about this odd concern Larry has for Tony and it is odd, because as I mentioned there's almost no reason for it. Here's the thing, what if the reason he didn't try all that hard in the questioning, didn't even listen to Renee's ideas about stronger methods, has no interest in catching Tony and even seems to care that he'd been captured is that he and Tony have been working together on some aspect of this since the get go. I'm not sure if it works exactly on every level, but would cast some Renee and Larry stuff in a new light. And also explain why Tony stuck around after dropping Jack off at White House instead of skipping town.
Also Tony's been all "we have to tell feds!!" happy lately for uh...no reason at all.
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Every time I THINK about that preview (the contents of which, you will notice, I am saying nothing about here;) I immediately go into a psychotic flailing state that inevitably ends with an inner scream of "Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck." It's super unattractive, especially when you have small children:)
p.s. Are you guys calling me shallow? :-P Even *I* am having conflict frustration of the "Holy shit it's hot to watch Jack drop trou" vs. "OMG he's kinda dying possibly so maybe the nekkid isn't so smokin'." I do occasionally possess hidden depths. Really really hidden.
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And hahaha. Sorry I underestimated you and your flaily-ness.
PS. Hey, I say embrace Teh Shallow. Sometimes Teh Shallow is the only thing that saves us from when our shows make us want to scream in frustration (in good and bad ways).
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And I too loved his WTF? moment when talking to Ethan. It was utterly realistic and exactly what anyone would do when confronted with such a long silence on the phone. Loved it.
And oh, poor Ethan. From the moment the lightbulb went off when Larry refused to be thrown under the bus, right up until his last words with Taylor, I felt so sorry for him. I've never believed he was a mole or evil, so it actually hurt to see him get treated so shabbily.
I have no words for Olivia except to express my complete and utter hatred of her.
As for Jack, I refuse to worry. Especially since I know there will be a Season 8. My thoughts are that he will actually be sick, which will provide the perfect excuse to bring Kim in. But before the day's end he will find the antidote/cure/magic pill that will heal him, and all will be well.
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I think Ethan will be back. Ethan is to Allison as Mike was to David Palmer. So I can see him being reinstated now that Starkwood has been identified, or him coming back next year. Either way, I don't think we've seen the last of him. That said, that scene with him and Allison just about broke my heart, because loyalty- true self-sacrificing loyalty- is one of my things.
I could see Kim being the one to bring in the DNA/antidote, which would be SO interesting for her to save him for once.
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I'd love to see Ethan again. And your mention of Mike makes me wonder if we might ever see him again. Even when he betrayed Palmer, I never stopped liking him.
I'm not sure if Kim would be the one to provide the antidote, although it could be nice if she did. I just think she'll show up after a phone call or something: "Hi, sweetie. I know I promised never to speak to you again, but I'm dying, so I thought you might want to know. *pause* Yes, for real this time."
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*dies* Oh that would be hilarious.
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Dear Tony: Please make yourself useful by using your kidnapping to obtain the bio-weapon. And the antidote. Don’t forget the antidote.
In the desperately clinging to hope department: Jack must have the greatest immune system of all time. If he survived China with (I assume) rudimentary or no medical intention without dieing of infections from all the torture/bad food/harsh conditions, then most viruses must take one look at him and run screaming in terror. Or not.
Also, anybody as eeeeeevil as Hodges wouldn’t make an bio-weapon without an antidote. Because he could infect a country and then sell the antidote (As someone on TVoP pointed out.) Bwa-ha-ha.
Seriously, that image of naked Jack is doing me in. Noticed his forearm tattoos but no scars. WTF?
The good news: Meyar is no longer going to indict Jack.
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I think you just nailed it on the head. I think that and the fact that he's now doubting and wondering if he just sacrificed his own life and Tony's to save Carl is what made him sit tight and let Larry come to him. The evidence has to be solid if they're going to move against Starkwood and save Tony, but rarely does Jack actually recognize that/reach out for help. Mayer really got to him because he's now putting full trust in the system and Larry to fix this and get Tony back.
Or you know, it could be he's kicking himself for not being able to shoot down a helicopter with a handgun. I mean, come on, Jack. You've done this before. Getting a little rusty, are we? Heehee.
Also- yes to the Hodges thing. And YES to the tattoos but no scars thing. SIGH.
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Boo for no scars. Still, let's not be ungrateful for an on-camera shower.
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