So.

I've been relatively quiet about the past 4 episodes of 24, in part because it sort of broke my brain but mostly because these past episodes have shifted the tone of the season completely. It was getting pretty dark enough when we all thought that the worst thing to happen that day was Jack possibly dying, but now with this revelation of Tony being a bad guy, it really did send the show in a completely different direction. Love him or hate him, Tony's loyalty to Jack has been one of the cornerstones we've come to depend on and changing that requires a shift in the writing because it has to come front and center.

And I've been holding out in order to see how they would address that, and what they'd have to sacrifice in terms of storytelling, simply because it's such a HUGE aspect. Thus far, I'm still not completely sure that this twist has been worth it, but a lot can happen in 2 hours so here are my thoughts on what the finale needs to have/do to save these past 4 episodes:

1. We seem to have lost the intertwined connections of the storylines now that Hodges is dead. For the first 18 episodes, there has been a personal connection between the President's storyline and the main villain thread, thanks to the connection between Juma/Dubaku and Hodges. One can easily see how you go from Samantha Roth (wow that seems like ages ago, doesn't it?) to Henry Taylor to the White House siege to Olivia and Alison's interaction with Hodges.

Now that they've shifted the bad guy focus to Tony and the Evil Skype Session of Doom, Olivia's blackmailing troubles seem wholly disconnected to the action. Which isn't to say that past seasons *haven't* done this (hello S1's entire storyline involving Keith and Nicole Palmer, S3's Julia Miliken), but this season has been so strong in the first 2 thirds, that to have this disconnect now is unfortunate.

For the finale, they need to refocus the President's storyline back onto the *President* not Olivia, and they need to bring her back to where the action is with Jack and Renee and the FBI.

2. I'm still waiting for an explanation for Tony's actions as to WHY he's doing all this. For all that they've done to establish Tony as the bad guy, showing his dastardly interactions with Cara and the Brothers McMuslim (who were admittedly AWESOME), the fact remains that they haven't given us his explaination yet, in his own words.

Because the thing is? From a logical POV, I can easily fanwank his actions to make sense within the villain storyline. If you view his actions today through the lens of a mission, assuming that Tony was tasked to track Dubaku and Juma's actions and tie up loose ends as they wrecked havoc on the US, you can track the logic behind it.

He uses Bill and Chloe to stop Dubaku only until after he's caused planes to explode. Once the mischief is managed, he simply puts CTU-lite on his trail to make him a liability to Juma and then Tony just tells Juma to watch him because Dubaku might flip on him. Operating under that theory, it actually makes more sense as to how Juma got a man in the hospital so quickly after Dubaku was captured. Then he tells CTU-lite about Juma's attack, but not enough to stop it from happening. Just enough to stop it from getting too far, and ultimately result in killing Juma. Loose ends tied, he moves onto the canisters, only to discover that Jack's on the trail again, so he tags along to troubleshoot in case Jack forces Hodges' hand (which he did by keeping the FBI on their trail.) Much of his role is reactive, adjusting as best he can to the wild card that is Jack Bauer so that they stay mostly on track.

So one could certainly explain his actions away as logical if you look at his mission as a troubleshooter/overseer of the chaos. The pieces are all there. The problem is, I shouldn't have to do all the work. I have no way of confirming my theory because they haven't addressed his actions at all.

And more importantly, the logic may be there but his motivations don't make sense from what we know about the character. Tony has always been ruled by emotion, so I could see him doing these things if he was lost, confused, angry, stupid, idiotic, lashing out and morally grey. And they had Tony say a LOT of things earlier on in the season that made sense as to why he went bad when he was talking about Emerson. So maybe in those scenes, Tony was talking about the present as much as he was the past. But the writers need to do more to remind us about that rather than keeping him silent. All we've seen since the twist is Tony being...well, like Nina. Cold, unapologetic and stubbornly silent.

Sometimes we can kind of see glimmers that he's conflicted about it: I could see him justifying taking away Jack's meds because he's not killing him. The bioagent is and at least he called over the medics before getting away. I could see him alerting Cara to watch Kim and use her as leverage but telling Cara to only use it as a LAST resort. (That's the only reason I can think of as to why they hadn't made the play earlier). Even his apology to Renee in 7x19 works, if you believe that he doesn't want to play certain hands unless he has to. But the writers are doing a crap job emphasizing that if that's the case.

For the finale, they need to be crystal clear as to why Tony's doing it, and if they're going to sell this at all, they need to show us that Tony is grey and conflicted about some things.

3. Finally, they've dropped the overarching themes that were so present and compelling in the first 18 episodes. The whole torture thing aspect, the debate over where the lines should be on whatever it takes? Completely gone because without characters like Bill and Larry who are on the same level as Jack and Renee, there's no one to pick up that banner. Having Janis there helps a little, but she keeps getting shot down and overruled. That and they keep making her look petty with her insecurity about Chloe.

And Renee- wow. I love her but her using the exact same wording as she did in 7x01 ("Do what you have to do") and actually meaning it this time, not bluffing? That should have been a bigger deal than it was. The writers completely glossed over it and I really think it was a missed opportunity because they could have used that moment to illustrate that the reason why she's like this is because she's still so very angry about Larry's death and in her eyes, anyone associated with Tony is Larry's murderer. The scene would have been laden with irony because it's the exact opposite of what Larry would have wanted and you know Annie would have KILLED a scene like that.

To their credit, they've done a good job with racial profiling aspect with the iman (Hi Bug from Crossing Jordan!), and not since the hiker couple in S4 have I enjoyed a minor character getting wrapped up in the action as I have with Jihbran and his awesome awesome "I have a bomb" ruse to clear the field. However, the very awesome themes of loyalty and honor and lines and "how far do you go" dominated the first 18 eps and dropping them now makes these past 4 eps feel lesser somehow.

So for the finale, I'd like to see them at least touch back to them so we have some sort of consensus/statement/resolution to these on-going debates, even if the answer is, we're both right and both wrong. Just something so that it doesn't seem like they just dropped the ball.

***

All that said, I still think that this season is one of the strongest yet. The cast is KILLING it, especially Annie and Kiefer, and although I haven't been completely happy with the past 4 episodes, I'm excited for the finale.

I love, LOVE the fact that for once, it's looking like Jack is going to be the one who needs to be saved. They've never done THAT before, and I'm super excited to see how it will all end. Especially if it ends with Renee coming in like a knight in shining armor on her white horse black SUV to save the day so they can kick ass and take names together. The man deserves to have someone do the heavy lifting for once, and if anything, I'm grateful that this season has given us a character worthy to be Jack's partner whose emotional connection has been wholly centered on him (as opposed to Tony who understandably always had a pull towards Michelle). Team Awesome is AWESOME, especially because I can always get my LOLs from them like this:



So all in all, if they can give me these three things, I think I can be happy with this season no matter how they end it.

From: [identity profile] marinw.livejournal.com


Now that the assorted crises have been delt with, I am hoping that the Finale will be ALL ABOUT Jack. And Kim. And how to save his life.

If you are looking for an explalation for Tony you may be disspointed. I find myself comapring Tony to Stephen saunders: He feels that his suffering is jusitfaction enough to seek vengence on the who freaking world.

They have dropped the torture thing. Dumb to leave Jack alone with Tony so that Jack can beat him. Great to watch, though.

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


I don't need a lot. I just need ONE line. Just one to show that the Tony I knew is almost but not quite completely dead, just twisted and sad. And if we see that part of him die on screen that's cool too. I just need something to show that we've gone from Point A to Point B, it's just that we're picking up on the tail end of that transformation, you know? Otherwise it just feels OOC.

Also, dumb? Maybe. But Larry was their boss and he was well liked and trusted. I could see them all stepping away to let Jack beat the crap out of him if they're completely angry at Tony. Shoot, I might if I were in their position. It's all personal; I just wish the writers picked up on that and brought it to the forefront so we get more of a sense of where everyone's head is at, emotionally or otherwise.
Edited Date: 2009-05-13 06:10 pm (UTC)

From: [identity profile] marinw.livejournal.com


Oh, good point about Larry and the FBI hating Tony as well. I think Renee WANTED for Jack beat him up.

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


Uh, didn't we all? That scene was only painful to watch because of how broken and upset Jack was at the end. In that moment, I empathized with Jack so much because I loved Tony and the Tony we saw this week was so goddamn smug and unremorseful, you just wanted to smack him so hard, just to see if he'd snap out of it and show some glimmer of the person he used to be.

And the fact that even after the beat down, he stayed the same? Cylon!Tony sucks. I hate that the writers haven't at least given the audience the chance to see that it affected Tony. They're really passing up some great opportunities to show the audience (if not Jack) where Tony's head is at.
ext_407935: (Default)

From: [identity profile] leigh57.livejournal.com


Uh, didn't we all?

Word. I was breaking in half for Jack, but Revenge!Shana needed that hardcore, as I'm sure did Renee. I was a fan. Frankly, Tony confuses me at the moment when he doesn't bore me. I only care about him presently as he relates to Jack, Kim, and Renee. Sigh. I know this makes me a terrible fan, because I'm supposed to care about his motives, but the way it's written I can't get inside his head at all. I really liked him at the beginning of the season. Also. He killed Larry. Have I mentioned that before? Geez I'm even writing Larry into the drabbles. No lie. It's beyond hilarious how much I love and miss him now, given where I started. I blame you;)

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It's hard to get into his head and care about him as a villain. We need motive, people!

And I'll gladly take that blame. Larry Moss. He grows on you. Heehee.
Edited Date: 2009-05-13 11:18 pm (UTC)
ext_407935: (Woe)

From: [identity profile] leigh57.livejournal.com


Larry Moss. He grows on you.

Yes. Yes he does. And then Tony brutally smothers him. Awesomeness. Meh.

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


Sigh, why ya gotta be like dat, huh? Bleh.

I just want them to show Tony as more than just the cartoonish moustache twirling villain we've seen in the past 4 episode. As I said below, the season's not over and they can still have a strong finish. It's just that the season's success level, for me, is now riding solely on these last 2 episodes and that makes me nervous.
ext_407935: (Hug from side)

From: [identity profile] leigh57.livejournal.com


It's just that the season's success level, for me, is now riding solely on these last 2 episodes and that makes me nervous.

Nervous doesn't quite begin to describe where I am right now. Back to the part where I could kiss your feet for sending me songs so I can compose bad drabbles as distraction. It's really working quite nicely, at least sometimes. GAH!

I'm supposed to care more about Tony, aren't I? Sigh. Only as it impacts Jack. Which well, yeah. From the preview is pretty heavily. GAH again.

From: [identity profile] cybertoothtiger.livejournal.com


The thing I don't get, if Tony is all bad, is why did he tell Jack about the White House attack and the canisters after that? That's just making his life complicated. Or did Jack find out about the cannisters his own self? I forget now. But Tony definitely told him about the White House. Why not just lay low and let it all happen if he really is bad? It'a little too Dr. Evil's School of Complicated Villanry for me.

The Brothers McMuslim. Heh. My mind made the next leap to The Brothers Karamuslim. And then I found this quotation, which ties in nicely to the theme of the season:

"Imagine that you are creating a fabric of human destiny with the object of making men happy in the end... but that it was essential and inevitable to torture to death only one tiny creature ... And to found that edifice on its unavenged tears: would you consent to be the architect on those conditions? Tell me, and tell me the truth!"
- Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

I think Jack's conversation with the Imam did carry the theme through into the last episode, but I agree it's not as strong as *sniff* Larry. And yes, Renee's "do what you have to do" could have been a much stronger bookend than it was, but Jack's warning to her spoke volumes.

I wanted more of an answer from Tony, too. I think the writers think they've explained him with his conversations at the beginning, but it doesn't really explain his actions to Jack during the day. That was the moment for the conversation, though, so I don't think we'll be getting anything else. I could be wrong.

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


Remember that Tony didn't tell Jack the target, just that it was happening. Putting Jack on Juma's scent but not telling him that the White House is the target makes it so that Juma has enough time to pull off the siege but almost certainly sends him to his doom because, well, it's Jack fucking Bauer. (Or in this case, Bill Fucking Buchanan. *sob*)

Finding out about the canisters was all Jack's doing when Quint failed to kill him, remember? After Jack's Bob the Builder moment, he was able to get the "Port of Alexandria" (*snerk* Sorry, DC native here) location out of him. Jack didn't know yet what the shipment was, just that it was arriving. From there it just snowballed, because Jack called Tony, remember? And Tony tried to protest, but Jack sort of barrelled through.

*

Eh, yes and no. The question was never about "do you keep doing things even if evidence proves you to be wrong" but "do you keep doing morally grey thing things if it's the 'only' way to achieve justice/preserve life." In that respect, I felt that the purpose of that conversation had more to do with Jack's personal journey and getting him to open up and feeeeeeeeel things again more than it did with the "how far do you go" theme.

And yes, Jack's warning spoke volumes in that he still views her as someone who needs to be shielded from it, so the fact that she didn't leave resonated. I just wish they had tracked her reaction in a split screen to really drive it home that this day has hardened her/she's been changed by Larry's death. There didn't even have to be an extra line or anything. Just as simple as letting us see her face to gauge her reaction would have been enough.

*

Well, there's still next week. Inevitably we'll get one more big Tony/Jack scene, so I'm hoping we get our Scooby Doo moment then.
catch22girl: (traitor by fujieda)

From: [personal profile] catch22girl


I kinda think the lack of emotion is completely intentional. They are purposely showing us nothing of Tony's inner conflict or feelings or anything beyond this cold mask that he's put up. Is that all there is to him and any other emotion is an act? I don't know. I'm not the writer.

I agree that the themes and plots have been weird in the past four eps, but I also feel like they're purposely limiting our POV. I'm having a really hard time enjoying them because so much is up in the air and the Tony twist without any kind of answers beyond my own fanwanking is *really* hard to handle.

I still can't believe he'd put Kim in danger. I mean you're right, this play would have made a lot more sense a few hours ago to keep Jack off his trail. The ads for next week are just *terrifying*.

I think with Larry's death Renee has lost her moral center and has no little voice telling her "this is wrong" - also remember 7x01 was before Tanner and Vossler.

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


Oh I get that it's intentional. I just think it's the wrong move. By all means, let him put up the guard for Jack and Renee's sake. Don't let THEM see it. But they should give the audience a leg up with some hint of where his headspace is at. It doesn't have to be a lot. Just one or two reaction shots of *something* beyond this impassive, cold demeanor. That way we know he's not this one-dimensional baddie and can then speculate and analyze to death what it meant. Cassar telling fans that no one on 24 is 100% good or evil doesn't help if all they're showing on the screen is Tony acting like a cardboard cutout of a villain. Show don't tell, you know?

*

I would love to see Renee reclaim that moral center, just a little bit, but if not that, I want to see how she's breaking down because they've done such a good job up until this point as it is. I bring up 7x01 precisely because, as you say, that was before Tanner and Vossler, and even before Tony and Bill and Larry. This day has changed her so much and as I said in the comment above, it would have been something as simple as a split screen tracking her reaction during the interrogation and that would have been enough for us to see the contrast. Because Annie could have DEFINITELY handled that, you know she would have killed it.

From: [identity profile] anniefan32.livejournal.com


As far as the Tony twist, I strongly believe that by the end of the last tick of the clock, we will understand what has driven Tony to this dark place, and understand his motives and what exactly he is all about. We may not all be satisfied, but I really think that we will have some sort of emotional moment with Tony telling us what we have been missing for the past 4 eps.

As for Renee's "do what you have to do", I think the only way they could have done it better would have been a split screen. Otherwise, it wouldn't have fit and it would have been like they were forcing it too much. 24 is notorious for skimming over some things and letting the viewers pick up on it and interpret them without it needing to be explained on camera. The fact that it was the same line, but now she really meant was enough for me in that moment. I got that this woman has almost transformed into a completely new person, yet at the same time has remained the badass chick we fell in love with in the first episode. I think you are right in that anyone associated with Tony at this point is like Larry's murderer, and she doesn't care about them being tortured. It's about the severity of the situation and the emotions running through her. I'm just not sure what else they could have done. But a few brief split screen moments while Jack was torturing him could have worked. Especially since, yes, Annie would have KILLED IT!

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


I hope that we get something more. I still cling to the fact that Carlos keeps saying that his favorite scene this year comes in finale so *crosses fingers*

I agree that it would have been too much to make a big deal about it in the dialogue, but given the format of the show, the unique way it uses split screens and its long standing tradition of reaction shots to get messages across, I think it's a waste that the director/editing department didn't choose to trust the very capable actors they have and let the camera linger on their faces more. This show is ALL about the reaction shot; it has been from the very beginning, so I was puzzled as to why they didn't use it in that very uncomfortable scene.

But that's just the TV critic in me talking. For the most part I'm pleased with what they've done with Renee's character and I did like her line at the end with Tony, telling him he'd pay. As someone else put it, it's so cute she still thinks justice will always be served and that things even out in the end.
ext_407935: (Don't fuck with me!)

From: [identity profile] leigh57.livejournal.com


Okay, I'm going to be brave here and respectfully disagree on the way the writer's handled the "Do what you have to do" comment. I'm not saying the split screen would not have been cool, and yes I would have enjoyed that also, mostly because Annie has killed me with reaction shots this entire season and I never get enough of them.

However, for me, the entire point of Renee's presence in that scene was to demonstrate how far she's come from the fresh-faced badge-flashing newbie we got in 7x01. I don't think she WAS having half as much of a reaction as even she herself probably would have expected. She's exhausted, emotionally drained (to massively understate the situation), and has had no time to process Larry's death OR the fact that Jack is dying in front of her. I read that scene in the sense that she's almost where Jack is (not quite), but right now her eyes are on the prize. She wants Tony and wants this thing done. If Jack torturing the bad dude is the way to get there, I didn't feel a huge load of conflict from her.

But that's just me. Thoughts?

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


Actually I think we're on the same page. I don't want a reaction shot to show that she's conflicted. I want a reaction shot of Renee to show how she's *not*

We got 2 tiny shots of her and that's about it. I'm nitpicking of course, but I would have preferred to see a split screen tracking her and, if possible, the agents around her because their new boss basically let Jack torture the guy. Are they onboard with her? Do they disagree? Are they all pissed off because these guys are responsible not only for Larry's death but their own coworkers, what with the apartment blowing up. Or are they like Larry and hate the idea of it? It would have been interesting to see, especially since that the medic here is the same medic that Jack stopped from treating Dubaku (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0697679/) in 7x10.

Maybe it would have been too much. I dunno. But it would have a very subtle way to show more complexity and continue the thread of debate without writing it in the dialogue. TV is a visual medium and they could have continued that thread by amping up the emotion (or lack thereof) simply by using a split screen. You can do so much with just a few seconds. It's all in the editing.
Edited Date: 2009-05-13 11:28 pm (UTC)
ext_407935: (Default)

From: [identity profile] leigh57.livejournal.com


TV is a visual medium and they could have continued that thread by amping up the emotion (or lack thereof) simply by using a split screen.

Ah, I've got what you mean now. Yes, I agree that a split screen would have played up her LACK of conflict over the situation, and Annie would have been all over that. And let's not lie. I kinda had a moment when Jack actually thought of Renee enough to tell her to leave. *squee* (Yeah, I suck.)

From: [identity profile] dealan311.livejournal.com


Haha. You're so easy.

You know what though? If they manage to have Renee actually come down to a decision on the torture debate in the finale, all this will be bygones. I just want to see some sort of resolution to it since it's been such a big part of the season (and really the center of her storyline at least for the first half.)
ext_407935: (Default)

From: [identity profile] leigh57.livejournal.com


Haha. You're so easy.

Totally pathetic is I think the phrase for which you search;) Wow that almost sounded like Yoda.

You do bring up a point that had been sort of floating around in my head but didn't want to articulate itself, and that's the way they have more or less shoved Renee's supposed torture issues to the side in the last few eps. Since it was such a huge theme, I agree it would be a lot more satisfying to get some closure on that one. I'm just not sure how they're going to fit everything into two hours.

From: [identity profile] anniefan32.livejournal.com


The main thing I am getting about this whole torture thing, which I do agree was her main storyline for the first half of the show, is that she is ok if it is the only way when the person they are torturing is evil. If she had to be in a situation like she was with Vossler's wife and baby, I think she would still have problems with it (not to say that she wouldn't do it). I think that is where her thin line lies. It would be nice to get clarification and some sort of resolution on this, but I also think it could be addressed in s8.

Regardless, Renee has been through hell and her almost lack of emotion when she told Jack to do it was almost like having more emotion. Annie really sold it w/out there having to be a split screen, but maybe a brief split screen would have been even more pleasing. =D
.

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