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Episode reaction- 24- 8x05:
1. So, the deal is happening five hours from now. HA. How convenient for you to get your weapons right at the 8hour/9hour transition when we usually start seeing the next big threat. Plot change overs always happen at hours 8/9, 13/14, and the crazy bender of episode 18. Oh 24, how predictable you are.
2. I'm enjoying the little moments of real conflict they're giving us with Hassan's family and the brothers. It makes them seem a lot more real, and it's a nice touch to have them care so much. I liked that Dalia was angry about the affair, but still tried to protect Kayla from her anger. I like that the Hassans had a true marriage of equals before it all fell apart, and I I REALLY like the brothers storyline because it's nice to see real affection and conflict among the villains and leave little breadcrumbs for our heroes to follow at the same time.
3. That said, I'm not really feeling this season for a number of reasons, primarily having to do with the lack of urgency. Right now most of my excitement centers around Jack and Renee, but that has less to do with the villains and more to do with Renee teetering on the edge of implosion. Where are the villains in this piece? At this point last year, we had Dubaku, Emerson with the knowledge that Juma was probably coming at some point too. They were engaged with the main cast. They actually posed real threats with real time limits and they were focused on getting shit done, which is what made them scary as fuck. This season, not so much.Fredo Farhad is off boning some hookers for the next 5 hours and the Nuclear Brothers are off getting medical treatment. None of this inspires any sense of urgency, which is why we have time to spend on:
4. The stupid ripped out of a Lifetime movie plotline for Dana. My patience is officially at its end. At this point, it's a paper tiger, wherein the entire plot hinges on people not talking to each other and that simply will not do. Poor Man's DiCaprio is now trying to blackmail her into breaking the law. Call his bluff and fess up, Dana. It's not worth getting arrested again, and if Cole's as good a guy as you keep saying he is, he'll work through it with you. GAH.
5. What really annoys me right now too is that we're wasting that time on that crap, when they had a perfectly good scene to air that might make me care about the Presidential storyline more. There was a deleted scene, wherein we got to see Hassan pretty coldly ordering the purges, despite the reluctance of his presumably Head of Security (who btw, might be dating his daughter). That scene would have dovetailed nicely into the Taylor/Hassan argument about how to respond to the insurgents.
As storylines go, it's not as exciting as chasing after bad guys and chopping off thumbs, but the President storylines are always filled with these kind of ethical debates every season and this one is par the course. It's building into a nice complex argument between Hassan and Taylor, and I like that they're showing more nuances to Hassan and giving him understandable reasons for acting the way he does.
6. All in all though, it's Annie Wersching who's carrying the season for me this year, and not just because Renee's my favorite character right now. I love Jack, but he spent the episode in the car. He reacted beautifully and heartbreakingly so, but Renee's really the only one who really brings any sense of urgency to the plot. We care because Jack cares but also because Renee's the only person bringing in any interaction with the villain, and she's so broken right now we're not sure how she'll react. It sorta kills me to see her in the same position as she was last year at the end of 7x05, but this time not fighting at all. It's a nice touch to just lay it out there, bare because the cover wasn't working, so she retreated into the truth. That scene is totally going on AW's reel, and if she doesn't get an Emmy nod this year, I'll be very surprised.
7. Warning. Rant to follow. Also potential trigger warnings for conversations about rape.
That said, the raging feminist in me has to wonder why the writers chose to give her that much of a broken background with Vladimir. For all intensive purposes, Renee has functioned on this show on par with the male lead. One of the more refreshing parts of S7 is that her narrative focused mostly on the moral quandaries of her job. She acted with the agency and drive normally only given to characters like Tony and Jack, and and her role as a traditional love interest was periphery at best. Even now in S8, despite the fact that the UST undercurrents are shippy as hell this season, her primary role has been driving the action, and she has been in complete control of her own destruction/salvation. By writing her as a victim, they've complicated her bad-assery in S7 in a way that retroactively handicaps it. She's no longer badass in her own right simply because it's part of her character's DNA; she's a badass because she's been victimized first.
Did they have to go there with Renee? Would they have physically and emotionally abused the male lead so explicitly as to actually call the attempted rape out in the script, even if it was unconfirmed? Somehow, I doubt it. To date, I can only think of one show that allowed the rape of its male lead (and recognized it for what it was- none of this dubious consent stuff). And while yeah, the writers on that show handled it well, there's a reason we rarely see it in male leads that has nothing to do with the fact that statistics of rape victims are higher in women than men. Narratives about rape always revolve around loss of power and to apply that to a male lead, who traditionally is characterized by strength, is too emasculating for most writers to handle. For all that there might be fan speculation about what happened in China and hints between Jack and Ramon Salazar if you are wearing slash goggles, the *writers* never explicitly indicate anything about it in the script. The writers would never, ever go there with Jack, which is why I don't like seeing them going there with Renee.
And it *bugs* me because it's so wholly unnecessary. I watched the promo for this week because it was included in the streamed version I was watching. Setting aside the fact that it's now even harder to reconcile a battered, almost raped Renee with how innocent she seemed in S7, it pisses me off beyond belief that they've decided to go there with Renee. I mean, she's already dark and broken enough. It was already interesting to see whether she'd become the architect to her own spiraling downfall. They could have easily played it as Vladimir blackmailing her into having sex because he's always had a crush on her. At least then, it would only be a matter of having her choose how far she's going to play on that relationship for the sake of the mission, since it would be the first time he made a real pass at her.
Instead they've added a layer of violence and fear into the mix by making her an abused victim in a no-win situation. If she refuses, she loses her in, possibly blows her cover and maybe gets herself killed. If she consents, then it erases the victorious escape she had prior to this op. This isn't just an issue of physical abuse if the sex occurs; the psychological damage here is also present because it confirms the idea that no matter how much you think you can escape him, even after 6 years, you can't. Vladimir still wins.
And worse, the implications it has on the shippery front, in my mind, are equally as potentially damaging. In one fell swoop, the writers have cut Renee off at the knees, taken away her agency and swapped out character development for victimization, and it's just LAZY if they did all this just so that they can use it to get Jack and Renee together. I have no problems with 'Jack helping Renee get better' as a stepping stone to getting them together, but I also don't want him to be THE one to save her. Renee needs to play an active role in saving herself because that's the only way I will accept them being them together- as the equals they have always seen each other to be. And I just don't know *how* they're going to pull that off with the scenario they've placed Renee in.
TL;DR read version: They just retconned one of the strongest female characters they've written to date as a victim and placed her in a situation where she is sure to be victimized even more one way or the other. And the entire plot just took a huge turn into hurt/comfort fanfic territory in a way that I'm not sure I trust the writers to handle correctly, so I can't even squee properly about that.
I dunno. I'm hoping to be proven wrong, because I'd really like to have my kickass female character back. Annie can only do so much, and while she and Kiefer are totally keeping the show afloat, I want this season to be so much more.
1. So, the deal is happening five hours from now. HA. How convenient for you to get your weapons right at the 8hour/9hour transition when we usually start seeing the next big threat. Plot change overs always happen at hours 8/9, 13/14, and the crazy bender of episode 18. Oh 24, how predictable you are.
2. I'm enjoying the little moments of real conflict they're giving us with Hassan's family and the brothers. It makes them seem a lot more real, and it's a nice touch to have them care so much. I liked that Dalia was angry about the affair, but still tried to protect Kayla from her anger. I like that the Hassans had a true marriage of equals before it all fell apart, and I I REALLY like the brothers storyline because it's nice to see real affection and conflict among the villains and leave little breadcrumbs for our heroes to follow at the same time.
3. That said, I'm not really feeling this season for a number of reasons, primarily having to do with the lack of urgency. Right now most of my excitement centers around Jack and Renee, but that has less to do with the villains and more to do with Renee teetering on the edge of implosion. Where are the villains in this piece? At this point last year, we had Dubaku, Emerson with the knowledge that Juma was probably coming at some point too. They were engaged with the main cast. They actually posed real threats with real time limits and they were focused on getting shit done, which is what made them scary as fuck. This season, not so much.
4. The stupid ripped out of a Lifetime movie plotline for Dana. My patience is officially at its end. At this point, it's a paper tiger, wherein the entire plot hinges on people not talking to each other and that simply will not do. Poor Man's DiCaprio is now trying to blackmail her into breaking the law. Call his bluff and fess up, Dana. It's not worth getting arrested again, and if Cole's as good a guy as you keep saying he is, he'll work through it with you. GAH.
5. What really annoys me right now too is that we're wasting that time on that crap, when they had a perfectly good scene to air that might make me care about the Presidential storyline more. There was a deleted scene, wherein we got to see Hassan pretty coldly ordering the purges, despite the reluctance of his presumably Head of Security (who btw, might be dating his daughter). That scene would have dovetailed nicely into the Taylor/Hassan argument about how to respond to the insurgents.
As storylines go, it's not as exciting as chasing after bad guys and chopping off thumbs, but the President storylines are always filled with these kind of ethical debates every season and this one is par the course. It's building into a nice complex argument between Hassan and Taylor, and I like that they're showing more nuances to Hassan and giving him understandable reasons for acting the way he does.
6. All in all though, it's Annie Wersching who's carrying the season for me this year, and not just because Renee's my favorite character right now. I love Jack, but he spent the episode in the car. He reacted beautifully and heartbreakingly so, but Renee's really the only one who really brings any sense of urgency to the plot. We care because Jack cares but also because Renee's the only person bringing in any interaction with the villain, and she's so broken right now we're not sure how she'll react. It sorta kills me to see her in the same position as she was last year at the end of 7x05, but this time not fighting at all. It's a nice touch to just lay it out there, bare because the cover wasn't working, so she retreated into the truth. That scene is totally going on AW's reel, and if she doesn't get an Emmy nod this year, I'll be very surprised.
7. Warning. Rant to follow. Also potential trigger warnings for conversations about rape.
That said, the raging feminist in me has to wonder why the writers chose to give her that much of a broken background with Vladimir. For all intensive purposes, Renee has functioned on this show on par with the male lead. One of the more refreshing parts of S7 is that her narrative focused mostly on the moral quandaries of her job. She acted with the agency and drive normally only given to characters like Tony and Jack, and and her role as a traditional love interest was periphery at best. Even now in S8, despite the fact that the UST undercurrents are shippy as hell this season, her primary role has been driving the action, and she has been in complete control of her own destruction/salvation. By writing her as a victim, they've complicated her bad-assery in S7 in a way that retroactively handicaps it. She's no longer badass in her own right simply because it's part of her character's DNA; she's a badass because she's been victimized first.
Did they have to go there with Renee? Would they have physically and emotionally abused the male lead so explicitly as to actually call the attempted rape out in the script, even if it was unconfirmed? Somehow, I doubt it. To date, I can only think of one show that allowed the rape of its male lead (and recognized it for what it was- none of this dubious consent stuff). And while yeah, the writers on that show handled it well, there's a reason we rarely see it in male leads that has nothing to do with the fact that statistics of rape victims are higher in women than men. Narratives about rape always revolve around loss of power and to apply that to a male lead, who traditionally is characterized by strength, is too emasculating for most writers to handle. For all that there might be fan speculation about what happened in China and hints between Jack and Ramon Salazar if you are wearing slash goggles, the *writers* never explicitly indicate anything about it in the script. The writers would never, ever go there with Jack, which is why I don't like seeing them going there with Renee.
And it *bugs* me because it's so wholly unnecessary. I watched the promo for this week because it was included in the streamed version I was watching. Setting aside the fact that it's now even harder to reconcile a battered, almost raped Renee with how innocent she seemed in S7, it pisses me off beyond belief that they've decided to go there with Renee. I mean, she's already dark and broken enough. It was already interesting to see whether she'd become the architect to her own spiraling downfall. They could have easily played it as Vladimir blackmailing her into having sex because he's always had a crush on her. At least then, it would only be a matter of having her choose how far she's going to play on that relationship for the sake of the mission, since it would be the first time he made a real pass at her.
Instead they've added a layer of violence and fear into the mix by making her an abused victim in a no-win situation. If she refuses, she loses her in, possibly blows her cover and maybe gets herself killed. If she consents, then it erases the victorious escape she had prior to this op. This isn't just an issue of physical abuse if the sex occurs; the psychological damage here is also present because it confirms the idea that no matter how much you think you can escape him, even after 6 years, you can't. Vladimir still wins.
And worse, the implications it has on the shippery front, in my mind, are equally as potentially damaging. In one fell swoop, the writers have cut Renee off at the knees, taken away her agency and swapped out character development for victimization, and it's just LAZY if they did all this just so that they can use it to get Jack and Renee together. I have no problems with 'Jack helping Renee get better' as a stepping stone to getting them together, but I also don't want him to be THE one to save her. Renee needs to play an active role in saving herself because that's the only way I will accept them being them together- as the equals they have always seen each other to be. And I just don't know *how* they're going to pull that off with the scenario they've placed Renee in.
TL;DR read version: They just retconned one of the strongest female characters they've written to date as a victim and placed her in a situation where she is sure to be victimized even more one way or the other. And the entire plot just took a huge turn into hurt/comfort fanfic territory in a way that I'm not sure I trust the writers to handle correctly, so I can't even squee properly about that.
I dunno. I'm hoping to be proven wrong, because I'd really like to have my kickass female character back. Annie can only do so much, and while she and Kiefer are totally keeping the show afloat, I want this season to be so much more.
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The Dana shit sucks. It sucked from the moment it started, it sucks now, and I can't imagine it not sucking. This makes me so MAD, because I want this show to succeed, in the sense that if it's the final season, I don't want everybody to remember 24 as the show that took Katee Sackhoff and made her act a character who's an abused loser. FLERGH.
Thank you for the snark about Farhad boning hookers. I needed that:) I laughed out loud when silly accented man #349623907758290 said, "Then take both."
And now, to the Jack and Renee show. AUGH AUGH AUGH AUGH AUGH. That pretty much sums it up. I can't even pin down the anger that keeps flying all over inside my brain. I can't decide what to be most upset about first. As I've said in ten thousand other places now, I was fully on board until the moment they suddenly pulled out the backstory with Vlad. And of course even that took me a while to digest, to realize the ramifications of what they had just done. I get it now, and I am such an unhappy unit it's unreal.
At the moment, my theory goes as follows. I'm going to have to see whether they actually follow through with what they're teasing in the preview of horror. If she actually has sex with Vlad, then while I will watch the rest of the season because Kiefer and Annie pwn my soul, the character of Renee as I know it will officially be gone.
What's more, I'm gonna have a skeezefest, because everybody keeps hinting about how shippy this season is going to be. Well uh, no? I mean if she has sex with Vladimir, as far as I'm concerned, there endeth the ship. There's no way we can get back on a page for any sort of connection beyond, "Wow I'm really sorry that had to happen to you, babe" within 19 hours. Adrienne swears it is absolutely not going to happen, but I do not trust 24. So I don't fucking know.
While I usually await 24 with bouncy anticipation, this week I'm shuddering dreadful shudders of doom. I should just give up TV. Fuck. Are you okay with me adding what you've said here as a link from my journal?
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Haha. Well it's true though! Last year we had Dubaku who was probably one of the best first act villains we've had since Ramon and I'd say at least on par with Ira Gaines (still my favorite bad guy for some reason). We had Emerson and we knew Juma was coming and Jon Voight were coming because of Redemption. All were very interesting villains, and the sense of urgency never stopped. This year? We have evil!Lester (why do I keep coming up with names for Farhad) and Oleg the Russian dude with American sons who are so gonna screw him over.
I'm putting my discontent with the Renee storyline out in the open right now because regardless of whether or not they follow through with the sex, the very idea of her going dark and even entering that room and walking toward him bothers me on so many levels.
And short of Jack burst in there to stop it, arriving "early" as the buyer (using a clever use of Harry Potter glasses, might I add), I don't see how they're going to avoid it because they can't kill him. They need him to set up the deal with Oleg. I will HAPPILY eat crow next week if they can find a way to avoid it, but that still doesn't change the fact that I am hating this background story.
I kinda feel like they stole a bit of S7!Renee's awesomeness away from her and it skews all her interactions (with Marika, with Larry) and it - well I don't want to say cheapens, but it kinda does cheapen her progression from white to grey in S7. Now it just feels like a regression, because you had to know that coming out of this op, Renee had to be messed up. It's one thing to say she was undercover. It's quite another to have had her beaten and possibly raped (because if Larry was her handler, you know she's the one responsible for keeping it out of the report.)
Part of me want to take a break from the show for a couple episodes and focus on the happy shiny worlds of Chuck, Castle and Big Bang Theory for a while. If they go through with the dubcon rape, I'm definitely retreating into the AotF verse for a while. I like that place better right now. Luke >>>>>>Arlo.
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You avoid spoilers, so I'm trying to talk in a general sense about this. But pretty much all of the stuff coming from Kiefer, Annie, HoGo, etc, has suggested a shippy season. This I cannot reconcile with her being forced into having sex with a man who has brutalized her in the past. So I mean, I'm just flummoxed. If that happens, where the fuck do we go from there? Even Jack can't pick up that many pieces. He's not superman. God I'm just so angry and heartbroken over this. And the problem for me is that in such a strange way, 24 IS my happy place (yeah that sounds fucked up, but with my epic personality it's the truth). So if I have to leave here, there's no fictional happy place left into which I can retreat. Sure, Chuck is cute and all, but I turn it on, watch, and turn it off. Done.
God this just. Sucks. Mostly I want it to be Monday, not because I'm looking forward to it in the least, but because I want it over with. Right now I kind of can't believe I waited eight months for this.
From:
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This is exactly the reason why I try to avoid previews btw. 24 previews always either lie or spoil, and I hate going into things with expectations of trying to figure out if it's A or B. This one slipped by my radar because I was so caught up in what the hell just happened at the end that I didn't realize the previews were going over the credits and couldn't get to my computer in time.
I agree that there is an important divider and I hope that stays in place. I just hate that this is even an option at all.
Awww. You not having a happy place makes me sad. I hope they don't screw this up for you. Being a shipper is hard, yo.
Where are you in S2 of Chuck btw? Have you seen the DeLorean episode yet?
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Yes, being a shipper is hard, but this is epic. Never once in all my history of shipping has it been this hard for me. Oh whatever. What will be will be. I cannot change it.
Um, all I'm recalling is Chuck badly driving a Ferrari? We just finished the one where it becomes apparent (at least for now) that Jill is a Fulcrum agent. And um, can I just say that at present, I'm hating on ALL my shows' (read: all two) storylines? That sex with Jill was just GROSSSSSSSSSS and I've never been this sympathetic to Sarah in my life. Please make Jill go away soon.
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The ONLY thing left inside me that holds an electron of optimism is this: it does seem odd that if they wanted the shock value of Renee prostituting herself to her former tormenter in order to keep the cover going, they'd make the preview THAT heavy with suggestion. idk. I'm probably just grasping at insane straws because I can't let my girl go.
*returns to sobbing*
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And then the show ended, and I realized that yet again almost nothing had happened, and the scene I liked so much was really nothing more than filler. Well-written, well-acted filler, but still...filler.
I'm painfully bored. I too have given up on the Dana storyline. Right now the only thing keeping my interest is waiting for David Anders to come back on my screen.
As for Renee and the teaser...oy. I'm trying very hard not to think about it, and what the retcons does to her character. About the best I can do is suggest that after the events of the undercover op, she dove headfirst into the apparent sanity of law and order, and went completely by the book in an over-reaction to what happened to her. And that she was still in that mode when we met her in Season 7.
The violence and darkness of the undercover op, however, does at least explain a little better why she was so easily able to abandon her rigid stance against Jack and his methods early in the day, and "adapt" so quickly.
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Dude, Jack stayed in the car all episode. That right there is a huge indication of how badly this season is going right now.
The violence and darkness of the undercover op, however, does at least explain a little better why she was so easily able to abandon her rigid stance against Jack and his methods early in the day, and "adapt" so quickly.
See, to me it cheapens the struggle she went through a little. It'd be one thing if she was the one carrying out the violence and darkness. The way they've written it, she's on the receiving end of it. So for her then to switch roles as she did in S7, it adds this level of....I dunno, exorcising her demons by becoming the enactor that's disturbing (the victim becomes the victimizer).
And I liked S7 as it is without that now plausible reading of the text.
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Presumably she would have been responsible for some level of violence herself, though, in order to have been accepted for so long with such a violent gang to begin with. But I agree, by only showing the victim side of her, they cheapen the character.
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There have been other cases of 24 femalec haracters having sex to advance the plot, Girl and Alexi Drazen in Day 1, Lisa Miller and Dude in Day 6, Olivia and other Dude in Day 7. This is different because of the layers of yuck that you describe.
And Day 7 was on the level of Battlestar in terms of gender equality.
Even so, I am Not quite as outraged as you are, as I am willing to see where this goes.I did inadevertingly watch the promo, hoping it is misleading.
HATE the Dana subplot. I do like and care about the two brothers, so I hpe they spend some time on that next week.
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I'd rather see the brothers at this point than Dana and Arlo. Cole sat this one out too, which is also part of the problem with the Dana storyline. The most important person in that storyline still doesn't know his fiance's being thrown around in her own home. They're dragging it out too long, when they should introduce conflict.
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Yes, we love Renee, but 24 has always been about JACK and his journey. In ep 5, he really was just along for the ride. I look forward to his German Arms Dealer persona.
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Yes. Exactly.
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Yeah that was the biggest problem with ep 5 - as it was like okay and we need to hurry because? The nukes aren't even gonna be used on us! I felt urgency when Hassan was in danger, and that was awesome, but now it's early-mid day three when it's like and Jack and the Salazars and trying to get a virus because uh, they just are. 24 needs that sense of urgency and threat because the stakes have to be high to justify whatever actions the characters take.
I like h/c a lot more in fic than on screen - a LOT more. I'm hoping they didn't do this to make it easier to get them together, cause honestly this seems to make it more difficult. I like Jack being forced to be the one watching the insanity instead of performing it - kind of karmic justice. Somewhere George Mason and Michelle are laughing.
Narratives about rape always revolve around loss of power and to apply that to a male lead, who traditionally is characterized by strength, is too emasculating for most writers to handle.
Yes. This is so true. Which is why it will never be more than fanon, even though there's a lot of stories about what the Chinese do to their prisoners. The Ramon thing is mostly because he seemed to get under Jack's skin and enjoyed tormenting him. There was also a whole lot of lines like "I know what they did to you" and "the things you did to get me here", but YMMV. I was also kind of surprised that Jack immediately jumped to the was she raped thing and wasn't sure I liked what that said about HIM to assume that she'd only be that way if she was raped. But uh, that's where my parallels and mirrors comfort me even if it's only my insane theory. I also remember the critics' response to season 6s completely traumatized Jack. They hate when their male heroes are broken.
It makes me wish 24 was on HBO or at least cable (I've said this before...)
I wonder how victorious her escape was though, I mean, they didn't get him, he got away, so whatever she put herself through was really for nothing (like her interrogation of Wilson who probably told her nothing). It sucks to lose your soul and have nothing to show for it.
But um, that's why I'm holding judgment on the rape/abuse plot. I can't really see Annie being thrilled about playing a victim and it doesn't fit her comments of Renee being a wild card and dangerous. At least to me.
Anyway, I liked the ep more than you did, but it hasn't grabbed me like season seven, mostly for the lack of Tony and I find broken Jack more interesting than healed Jack.
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Hahaha. YES.
Yeah now that I've been able to settle down a bit, I'm back to trying to reserve judgment on the storyline. I cling to the hope that Annie's been so excited about this season that it's gotta be more than that.
Overall though, I'm with you on the wishing S8 would just kick it up a notch.